Nursing Mentorship with Jennifer Kirk RN | ETS06

Jennifer Kirk and I take you through a conversation through nursing challenges,
moral distress, compassion fatigue and vicarious trauma and how that can affect our lives as nurses.

We also highlight the health care systems set up that leave us vulnerable to errors that impact us and our mental health in devastating ways and how we can set ourselves up to be supported with mentorship and seeking help and guidance before we are circling the drain in despair.

Sandra's Key Takeaways:

• The Baggage Of Nursing 
• Boundaries 
• Heart Math Breathing 
• Bullying 
• Compassion Fatigue

 
About the Guest:
 
Jennifer Kirk BA, BN, RN, LP is the founder of Dragonfly Meadows - offering Equine
Facilitated Learning workshops for RN'S, LPN'S and other professional caregivers since 2014.

Jennifer is a practicing Registered Nurse with 17 years of experience. As an RN who has worked the majority of her career in critical care, she knows all too well the challenges nurses.  Throughout her career, she has experienced the changes in the health care system that have  impacted nurses: increased workload, low morale, high turnover rates, moral injury, compassion  fatigue, vicarious trauma, and poor work-life balance, to name a few.
Jennifer took her first workshop in Equine Facilitated Learning in 2012 and wanted to find a way to help nurses understand the stressors of their careers. A magazine article on Compassion Fatigue was an "A-ha" moment for her and she has been offering workshops for Nurses since 2014. She is a certified Equine Learning Professional through PRO-EFW ( Canada).

About the Host:
Sandra Payne is an ex-RN and Master Certified Holistic Wellness Trauma
Informed Coach. After overcoming her own suffering with psychological and
moral injury as a nurse she left the traditional nursing setting and explored
the world of coaching. She is the founder of the Nurse Rx Coaching Program
designed exclusively for other nurses who are struggling in their
psychological and emotional well-being. She is also the host of the End the
Silence Podcast, showcasing Nurse’s and their raw and touching stories of the
realties of living life as a nurse as well as inspiring hope & possibility for
change. Sandra is also a published children’s author with her book “The
Perfect Snowflake” and a singer songwriter.

Join the community of support - Facebook group “Surviving Nursing”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/638818697054847

Connect with Sandra Payne and download a copy of the Surviving
Nursing live workshop here https://www.sandrapaynecoach.com

Interested in becoming a Certified Holistic Wellness Coach check out
the IAWP here https://iawp.ontraport.net/t?orid=91998&opid=28

And watch this recording of a live interview with Sandra Payne and
the founder of the IAWP Suzanne Monroe


Purchase “The Perfect Snowflake” at https://www.sandrapaynecoach.com/the-perfect-snowflake-book/

Subscribe to Sandra Payne Wellness https://www.youtube.com/
channel/UCdIb3P4EoprDYrI2MxfcqtQ

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Okay

Sandra Payne: 0:05

All right welcome back for another episode of the in the silence Podcast. I'm Sandra Payne, your host and I am here today with Jennifer Kirk. She is a registered nurse and the founder of dragonfly meadows, a retreat space offering empowering and inspiring equine facilitated learning workshops for other registered nurses, LPNs and other professional caregivers since 2014. Jennifer is a practicing RN with 17 years of experience as an RN who has worked the majority of her career in critical care. She knows all too well the challenges that nurses face. Throughout her career she has experienced and witnessed firsthand the changes in the healthcare system that have impacted nurses in such huge ways are talking about the increased workload, low morale, high turnover rates, moral injury, compassion, fatigue, vicarious trauma and poor work life balance just to name a few. Jennifer took her first workshop and equine facilitated learning in 2012 and wanted to find a way to help nurses understand the stressors of their careers. A magazine article on compassion fatigue popped up and was a big aha moment for her. And she's been offering these workshops for nurses since then. Welcome to the show, Jennifer, I'm so excited to dive into everything that we have chatted about and so much more. I just you know, I want to say one thing first is like I love the name of your space dragonfly metals. I have a real affinity for dragonflies. I don't know why, but they flocked to me. And you probably know why. But I just wanted to put that out there because it it definitely sparked something. But nonetheless, welcome to the show, Jennifer.

Unknown: 1:52

Thanks so much, Sandra. I'm

Sandra Payne: 1:53

really excited to be here. Yes, yes. So so let's start off. And you can tell us a little bit about your story as a nurse and just you know, digging a little bit deeper as to kind of what's brought you here today. And you know, the backstory of Jennifer as a nurse. Sure.

Unknown: 2:11

I actually started nursing a little bit later in life. And my background was actually massage therapy. So I came from a very holistic background. And I had this vision that holistic medicine and modern medicine were going to meld. I ended up going into nursing, and I started out in plastic surgery and then did some general medicine. And then my dream was to work emerge. So I worked emerge in Calgary. And it was really exciting when you're brand new, like it's really exciting. And then you start really feeling what it's really all about working short staffed, not having the supplies, etc. So I made the move to ICU up in Red Deer. And during my time up in Red Deer I had taken a workshop and sorry, I'm gonna backtrack a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool, just ended up part of Sure. So I started nursing in about 2002 on thoracic surgery, and my background was really holistic medicine. So I studied massage therapy, acupuncture, cranial sacral, therapy, all those things. And I had this vision and this idea that nursing and holistic medicine would kind of come together. And I've been really disappointed in that. And then I made the move from Calgary up to Red Deer, and I ended up getting my first horse at age 40. And so anybody that enters the horse rolling age 40, goes through some big transformations and learning. And I took my first workshop on equine facilitated learning in 2012. And it was really an eye opener for me. And I began to understand how my work baggage really impacted my horses. So I would come home from working in the emergency departments in Alberta, in red here. And I would have all this baggage and I'd still be carrying around like the interaction from the first patient the day and not being able to get the patients to the floor. patients waiting in the waiting room getting upset, not getting my break, and the horses would be standing at the gate waiting for me. And when I went down to the gate, they would just scatter, right? So horses are very tuned to energy. So they're like saying, Hey, we're here for you, but don't bring that energy in here. So through the equine facilitated learning, I learned that I really needed to deal with the stuff from work like deal with the stress and the anger and the frustration and the hostility and all the emotions that we tend to bring home with us. And then through the equine facilitated learning, I kept thinking, how am I going to how can I bring this to nurses? And then there was a magazine article like you mentioned, and it was on compassion fatigue, and then it was a huge aha moment for me like I remember reading it down by room eight in the ICU, and it was like, This is it, this is what's wrong with me, I have compassion, fatigue, right. And all this stuff, all things like I had burnout, I had compassion fatigue, you know, worked all the way through age one and one in ICU. So a little bit of secondary traumatic stress there as well. So the horses have brought me forward in so many ways, just with learning how to deal with stress, I didn't know what Heart Math was, I didn't really know about grounding, as well as I thought I did, with my earlier career getting into massage therapy, and the holistic pieces, right. And the horses are very authentic. And they don't mirror you, they react to you. Right? So you need to dump your garbage before you go into the pasture. So that's what I learned, right? And so now I come home from work. And it's like, I kind of assess myself, am I in a space where I want to be around the horses? Right to the horses want to be around me when I'm in this frame of mind?

Sandra Payne: 5:58

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh, yeah. And I'm just I'm thinking of like, I mean, I have a number of clients, actually, particularly from Alberta, who who have their own horses or who work with horses, actually, there's some here in BC too. But nonetheless, they they are they work with horses, and I have this real curiosity about them. I've never been like a horse person. However, I did have a, you know, a shaman in training, did a spirit journey, spirit animal journey with me and told me that my primary spirit animal is a horse. And so I was, you know, I was a little bit. You know, I mean, I've been told I have a horse shaped face, by mean children in my life. But that's true. That aside, I was like, I was really intrigued by it. And my parents had just bought horses. And they were living on Vancouver Island, and I, I am nervous with them. And I, you know, I but I also thought like, you know, I've heard a lot about how therapeutic they are. And I've seen the, you know, on TV, different programs that work with troubled youth, and they bring them in with the horses. And now hearing your, you know, your perspective of saying, like, you have to dump your garbage before before you can be with the horses. I mean, it kind of makes sense. But maybe you can tell me a little bit more, because I'm sure I mean, I'm super interested. I'm sure people listening are also super interested just about, you know, how equine facilitated learning works and how you integrate it with nurses like how you provide that offering for nurses.

Unknown: 7:40

So I looked at it a couple of different things in the workshops. The first thing I look at is mindfulness. That's there's one exercise we do with the horses on mindfulness. The second thing we look at is boundaries. Boundaries are huge for nurses, nurses have terrible boundaries. Terrible, terrible, and we are programmed to be that way, right? Terrible boundaries. And then we look at like, what are we making it difficult for others to care for us? Right? Someone offering to care for you, and you kind of like, not letting them care for you. And then we look at like a takeaway, like, what's a goal that you're taking away from the workshop? So I can incorporate the nursing process into it. So I'll do a little bit of a lecture on will say, how is your worldview changed? Or how have you think you change being a nurse, and then there's interaction with the horse, and then there is some reflective writing, and then there's group discussion. So the exercise on boundaries is truth telling. So someone can think that they have really great boundaries until I put them with my horses. And I don't interpret the the nurses experience with the horses, they interpret it for themselves, it's not up to me to interpret what you felt, with my horse, your experiences your experience. So it's really interesting with one horse, my little Tinker horse, he's a Gypsy Vanner, he's very sensitive. And so if you're very clear and firm in your boundaries, he will listen to you and do what you want. So one of the exercises is there, walk the horse around the arena, then draw a line in the sand and step out in front of the horse and back up and the horse has to stay behind the line. Right. So if you have good boundaries, Tinker will stay behind the line. But if your boundaries are, if you don't really mean it, or a little bit uncertain about your boundaries, he will kind of step into you. And he'll just kind of want to stand next to you and maybe nozzle on you a little bit. And it's really fascinating to see, there's this have these experiments, and then you might have a nurse that sets the line in the in the sand. And he's like six feet behind the line. Right. So and it's really interesting that the experience everybody has like, yeah, you know, I really don't have good boundaries, or yeah, maybe I just say no, a little bit too loudly. You know, so it's really interesting and then we have to talk about how harder just to say no to like shift changes, how hard is it to say no to working overtime? How hard is it to say no to your family members when they want to do something after you get home from work?

Sandra Payne: 10:11

Yeah, yeah. I mean, boundaries apply to every aspect of life. And I definitely agree, you know, as a, as a general statement, you know, I'm sure that there, I know that there are nurses who do have good boundaries, and have worked really hard to create those because you're right, we're conditioned to not, we are guilted and shamed if we have boundaries, right, because what makes you so good that you can turn down shifts? Like, yeah, I mean, while everyone's killing themselves, but that again, is, you know, tied to that badge of honor that we wear, for for being burnt out, and for being the one who gives and does it all. But we can, we can totally talk about that later, too. But tell me a little bit more about how the horses and the therapies that you have learned but also practiced, I'm certain with yourself, how did they help you, as you were navigating the challenges of your nursing career?

Unknown: 11:06

Oh, so I've learned to like do a lot of the heart focus, breathing, grounding, stretching, there's just kind of different exercises that you can do is your you're aware, I don't do yoga, because my elbows can't take it. But if I could, I would. And it's just basically for me, as I do a lot of the Heart Math breathing, heart focus breathing, I will take time out. Like if there's a difficult patient, or difficult situation, I will step away, like, I'll take little micro breaks, you just need that sometimes to get through your day. And like I said, the most important thing is to dump your baggage before you interact. So it's like answering the telephone, right? Whenever you answer the telephone at work, it's scary, because you don't know what's going to be on the other ends, right? Is it going to be someone's looking for a bed? You don't have one? Patient's not discharged yet? Angry family member? Jamie like, but certainly, it's called being redeployed, right? We don't know what's going to happen. So I really try to incorporate the heart focus breathing throughout the day. And then sometimes the horses don't want to spend time with me, right? They might be want to hang out with each other. So if I go down to the field, and try and engage with them, and they say, No, it's okay. Like, it is okay, maybe not today. And sometimes they're standing out the gate going, Hey, let's do something. So it's really reciprocal. And there's a lot of different theories and philosophies when it comes to horsemanship. And that's a whole separate like, podcast. But for me, all the all the actual interactions I do with the horses are on the ground, there's no riding, brushing, leading, just being with being in the moment with them. Some nurses have had some pretty profound experiences just standing next to the horses.

Sandra Payne: 12:50

Yeah, yeah, thank you. And I wonder if we could even just backtrack a little bit and, and spend a little bit more time talking about some of the challenges that you did face as a nurse, you know, we, we kind of started and then and then we dove into the equine therapy. I mean, it's just so it's so fascinating. It's such an you know, a new and very, I don't know very much about it, about that type of therapy. So it's, it's super interesting to me, but I would like to kind of scale back and hear a little bit more about your story of, of how you were struggling as a nurse.

Unknown: 13:22

Sure it was working. One of the ways I struggle as I was working in the emergency department and I was being bullied by the manager, and it was really difficult and challenging. And I felt really powerless because she wanted me to do something that I didn't feel was safe. And at the time there wasn't as many jobs around as there is now. And my colleagues some of them were also bullied by this particular manager to do things that were not necessarily safe. And it was a really stressful department there's a lot of lateral conflict I guess and you just be overworked overwhelmed too many patients no breaks you don't get to eat disagreements with the doctors the whole package like it's everything delays and getting medications from pharmacy was it the whole thing as up to stress right like and it just snowballs like you get to work and you get reports and report isn't what you what you see isn't what you were told about and you know you're cleaning the stretcher yourself to get another patient in because of the waiting rooms 30 people deep Yeah, yeah. There's a accident in the highway. Your your your flow nurse is pulled to the trauma room so you you know it's all those all those things that add up and it's really hard when you cannot give good care. Yeah, right. We can't give you the care that we're trying to give.

Sandra Payne: 14:50

You can't do it. Right. No. And that's where that that you know that whole conversation around moral distress which for me, I'll tell you in my this was even after I had discovered so many tools and resources and had been already navigating my own healing for my mental health and my emotional health. But the the, the, the there was a video put out about moral injury. And that was a huge aha for me because it gave it gave it an a name, it gave it like a real, it made it real. And I what I have realized since then is that it is probably the most common cause of burnout, depression, apathy, overwhelm exhaustion in nursing, is because we're not able to give the care that we we know is going to be the most benefit to our patients. It's our standards, it's our values. It's everything that's internal Poland, and struggle for us because we are unable and unsupported to do the work that we want to do. And so you know, I mean, as you're describing this emergency room, it's just like, I get this vision of like, it just piles, right? Like it just piles up and everything, just, you know, you probably walk in the door, and there's like this instant flood of all of those hormones and things that happen inside of us when we're stressed. And we all know that that isn't good for us. Like we know that. But we also continue to walk into it. So I'm curious, like what what did you notice in your life that were telling you that this was not going well that this is this is a big was becoming a real problem for you

Unknown: 16:31

was probably drinking a little bit too much. Because I would come home and have a have a drink probably like right soon as I get through the door. And then you know, the biggest impact that I realized was the interaction with the horses that kind of really told me a lot. Once I started learning more about equine facilitated learning, I wasn't eating very well. I was losing weight, and just really not taking good care of myself like and, you know, my relationship with my husband at the time really suffered a lot, right? Because you literally have nothing to give when you get home. Right? It's like and we do tend to be nurses tend to be well, let's put it this way when a physician I talked to said that they felt sorry for children who had nurses as parents because they that physician felt that their those children did not get proper health care, because they never got to go to the hospital. Right? So we tend to minimize our family's needs. children's needs. I've had nurses come to my workshop, when nurse, her son had a broken arm for a week before she took him in for an x ray. And other nurse her husband had pericarditis before she let him go to the emergency department for five days. Jamie like so we we don't realize how we are impacted by what we do. Right. And I agree with you the moral injury is huge and moral injury just isn't the big things. It's all the little moral injuries that happen right like discharging a woman that you know is a victim of domestic violence back to that home, discharging a child you know is going back to home, it doesn't have groceries, discharging a frail, elderly patient home when you know you're going to be back the next day, because you're going to fall, right all those little things add up to the moral injury and then the big moral injury things are like providing care for people that don't want care. Like for example, you know, a code on a patient that doesn't want to be coded getting blood products to people that don't want blood products. There's all kinds of huge moral injury issue and I do think that it's probably the biggest factor contributing to nursing burnout especially during the pandemic.

Sandra Payne: 18:36

Yeah, yeah, I feel like this is you know, it's been a long standing issue I mean, because I haven't worked during the pandemic and I experienced it so it's like this has been a real reality of of Nursing and Health Care for for probably ever and but this is like pushed everything to the edge right it's pushed because now we're in like real crisis in health care with as far as staffing numbers and support you know, there's there's so many issues that are happening that the morale the division within the profession and just you know, the it's like we use this term, which is you know, only nurses will get it but like we often said like spire circling the drain, right when, when a patient's really going downhill. And and I feel like nurses, for the most part right now are really circling the drain. And it's like, how, how much more can we take? How much longer can we hold on and keep this all together? Because like, there are nurses dropping off in huge amounts, you know, on a daily daily on either medical leaves or leaving altogether because they're saying like, I can't, I can't do this anymore. Tell me a little bit more about your learnings about compassion, fatigue, and vicarious trauma and those kinds of pieces that we sort of mentioned in the in the beginning, but I'd like to dive into them a little bit more.

Unknown: 19:59

Sure. work. So most nurses don't actually know what compassion for tickets, and they don't teach you how to survive your nursing career in nursing school. So I never learned about compassion fatigue, I never learned about moral injury or moral distress. I didn't learn about any of those things. And so you kind of stumble along and you don't know what's wrong with you. That's what I find is the nurses that come to me, they know something's wrong, but they don't know what it is, because they just don't know. And then, you know, in the nursing profession, as you know, there's a great reluctance for mental health support. I have a mental health practitioner, I see. And I've been seeing her off and on for 10 years when I need to see her and it's great. It's always great to know that someone's there. And there is a certain group in there saying that kind of poo pooed mental health and nursing, but it's time that we actually acknowledge the moral distress, compassion, fatigue, and all the contributing factors to it, which is essentially, the system. So So for me, the biggest, when I realized I was had vicarious trauma is a girlfriend and I, we started selling purses at the local farmers market. And we both worked in the emergency department. And so I remember the first morning being there, there's probably 1000 people there. And I was like, I don't have to ask anybody if they move their bowels today, or if they peed. Yeah, like I was totally, like, I realized there's something wrong, like with me, because I just wasn't used to seeing that many healthy people, because I just pretty much worked and went home and worked went home. And I didn't go out. And I didn't socialize a lot. So I'm pretty much an introvert. And yeah, so I was really shocked. And I still can feel those feelings like, wow, seeing all these healthy people out out there in the world. I honestly didn't think they existed.

Sandra Payne: 21:45

Wow, hey, yeah, I mean, I can relate to that. In my, when I worked in the NICU, for you know, you start to think that like, all babies get sick, like, you know, you know, consciously, you know, they're only a small percentage. But, you know, when I was pregnant with my first child, it was like, you know, the flood of every possible thing that could, that could go wrong, and you think that all those things are gonna happen? You know, I, there's like, the the flip of what you're talking about how we, you know, as nurses don't, don't let our family members go and get care, because we're like, you know, it's not bad enough yet, right? Like this, this standard that. But then there's the other flip of that, where I think it could be even a different perspective of like, almost like, hyper, you know, thinking that everything is wrong. I think it's called, like, a hypochondriac. And I don't like to label things. But you know, it's like, where you think everything is wrong, because you've been exposed to so much. So much disease and sickness and suffering and so much awful. Just situations that people can go through. And so you know, the slightest little tinge, and it's like, Oh, my God, I'm having a heart attack or like, Oh, my God, this is cancer. I have a lump here. Right. So it's like, we also have that side of it, which is, I think, also symptoms of that vicarious trauma, right? Where we just are in that hyper kind of vigilant state where everything is could be a problem. Yeah, tell me a little bit more like I really want to dive into this compassion fatigue, because you are so accurate and that they do not prepare us for for any of this in nursing school. I have heard like little whispers of some things that have changed in different programs. But so so possibly, it's on the horizon. I certainly hope so. But you know, but they don't prepare us for it. They don't tell us about burnout. They don't tell us about compassion, fatigue or trauma. They don't tell us about moral distress. We go into this, you know, like, I just posted this, it was a comedy skit. Did you watch it? Yeah. Awesome. Different across the stage as a new nurse, right? She's all excited. And she's got like, all her pens and everything. Like, you know, they, they we come into it with this bright eyed person. Oh, yeah. Like you want. You're excited. I mean, we just went through frickin hell to get here. And we're finally here. And we're excited. And then we then we work in this for, you know, sometimes not even a year and nurses are feeling it like specially right now. Yeah. So, so what kinds of signs? You know, you mentioned a little bit about what the impact that you were noticing in your life? What kind of other signs do should people be looking out for like when it comes to this compassion, fatigue? And, you know, all those other pieces we've talked about? Well,

Unknown: 24:27

a lot of the girls that come to my workshop, so we're here in Nova Scotia full time nurse, we'll do two days and two nights. So some of the younger nurses, I mean, the new ones, the dolphins, I guess it was right. Yeah, that was the skirt. Yeah. So they'll get off the morning of their second night and start binge drinking, to manage with the stressors that happened to them for the four days before. So they've been string for a couple of days and then they will be still referred to and go back to work. That's poor coping. A lot of them don't sleep. Like nurses, even any across the board don't sleep. hyper vigilance is huge, right? Like, and that falls into I don't want that to happen to me. And that falls into the I don't want to make a mistake. Part, right. And like the conversation we had the other day, but how the system sets nurses up to make mistakes, right. And a lot of nurses don't really realize that like, the system sets you up, right? Like, or the system doesn't intentionally set you up, but the system is set up. Right, so that you, you know, make mistakes, you don't get your breaks, you don't get to eat. A lot of the nurses will have lots of physical complaints, somatic complaints, heartburn, fatigue, anxiety, depression. I think what else has come up? A lot of them. The younger ones, they always go to the bathroom with a friend when they go to the bars. They don't want particular one particular nurse that worked long term care. She's like, I don't want that to happen to me. And she means being a resident in a long term care facility. Right. So the golden years aren't so golden.

Sandra Payne: 26:08

Yeah, yeah, it creates a ton of fear, right? In so many different ways. Yeah. And I mean, I see the same things. When I'm, you know, meeting nurses for the first time, and we're getting to know each other and, and talking about what's happening. And it's a lot of the same things, you know, like the biggest probably, I would say, named symptom that nurses bring is anxiety, and depression. And I think because there is quite a, you know, a strong understanding of those, and they are more commonly used terms, but I don't think we really fully understand yet. I'm not saying everyone but the depths to what this amount of stress can can impact us, right, on every level, on a psychological level, on an emotional level, on a physical level, on a spiritual level on a relational level, like it affects everything. And, you know, it may not right away, but it's a very slippery slope. And I and I kind of think of it, it's a little bit insidious, right. And because it creeps in, and, and we're in this culture that normalizes it. So so we don't think it's anything, right? It's like, well, it's not that bad, right? Like, it's not that bad. And we literally some nurses say yet, it's not that bad yet, like so we know, it's gonna get worse, but yet, we're not doing anything about it, about it to make it work to make it better. I wanted to dig into this to this conversation that we did have a couple days ago about errors and how, how our system, you know, as you were saying, it's kind of set up to, to facilitate us to make errors. And I know, it's not intentionally set up, but it's, but it's not supportive of us to ensure that we are in a safe, practicing environment that we can minimize errors, right, because this is a symptom. Honestly, it's a symptom of burnout symptom of all the things increased errors. And I know we were talking and I, you know, I was, I was an absolutely terrible night shift nurse. I did not do well, I had brutal restless legs. I couldn't, I could stay awake. But it was it was really painful for my body to be awake. And, and I was lazy. I was lazy with things like I really I could own it, I would, you know, I would write down numbers from a monitor that I hadn't, you know, I hadn't actually, I was lazy, because I was dying inside. And I made a lot of errors. All of my med errors were done on night shifts. And, you know, I want to talk a little bit more about that, because I know you had an like a an error in your career and possibly more than one so definitely one. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that. That experience and like how and how it all evolved and how it impacted you.

Unknown: 28:52

Sure. One thing I just want to mention, going back to what you just said. So most nurses that are diagnosed with anxiety and depression is actually something else, right? So they'll go to the family doctors with these feelings, and they'll get diagnosed with anxiety and depression, but sometimes it's something else like PTSD. So, you know, there's anybody that's out there that's listening, that your doctors diagnosed you with anxiety and depression, you probably need to seek further consultation and investigation. That's been kinda what my experience is

Sandra Payne: 29:21

for sure, and more and more and more than just a pill to treat it. Like that's not an effective it's not an effective intervention for people who are suffering in that kind of way. Because it's not just I'm just anxious. It's never just that there's so many more pieces there that require an in depth in depth look, yeah, for sure. Yeah,

Unknown: 29:42

yeah. Yeah. So many errors. Wow. Like I've I've seen a lot and I made one, and I met Aaron. I was working in immersion. I gave a little gentleman, a little old man that fell at church and got some compression fractures in his spine. I ended up giving him a little bit too much morphine and I had gone home And before the count was done, which is a no, no, but that's kind of how the department rolled at the time. And I got a phone call and it was like, did you give such and such such and such and because the morphine counts out and I was like, Oh my gosh, I must have, I must have done it. Because at that time, we didn't double check our meds kind of like we do now. And I was like, I must have done it. And I was completely devastated. crying, I was down on the horse pasture, actually, crying fetal position, in the horse pasture thinking I'm going to lose my nursing license, I felt truly horrific, like horrific. And I was asking with the patient was okay, and he was totally fine. And so there's a couple of things that led to that. Number one is the med cart was in the middle of the, the all the nursing stations in that particular emergency department, and there had been some catastrophic manners made there before. And I was I think I was interrupted, the Secretary would interrupt you, the doctor would interrupt you, your nursing partner would interrupt you when you were at this particular station. So anyways, I did it, I gave too much working. So I had gone to ICU, I think it was a couple of days after that. And that was something that was in transition at the time. And I still never got over it, I'm still not really over it. And it's been years. And so about a year later, I was down in the emergency department, speaking to the same manager who was down there, and the pharmacist was in there. And she brought up his Medair that I had made. And I said, you know, I was I said, I was still really distraught about it and upset about it. And the pharmacist said, Well, I follow that patient all the way through his hospital stay. And the only time he had good pain control is when he was with you. And I said, I wish you would have told me that a year ago.

Sandra Payne: 32:00

Yeah, I remember you sharing that part. And I was thinking like, you know, the, why don't they right, like, you know, this, the the learning aspect, right? I mean, of course, it doesn't always have a positive spin to the arrow. But there is, you know, it was it was spurring the conversation around the different errors that I had made as well. And it just, you know, the big part that really stood out for me, as I was reflecting on that later on is like how, in, in the midst of such a traumatic experience of making an error, right of potentially harming someone, you know, not intentionally, of course, but still potentially harming another human being. And in my case, it was an infant, and the shame and the fear and the guilt, and just, you know, the, oh my god, I not cut out for this, like they were right, I shouldn't have never become a nurse like everything, but I tell them all the things right? All the mind mass just like floods to the surface, all those trauma responses flood to the surface. And what I was met with was anything but compassion, anything but empathy and support, it was like just you know what he or she is she's down, let's kick her while she's down. And that was, you know, that was a really significant experience of my nursing career too, because I still, I could relive that moment. It's still very fresh in my body, as well as many others, as I'm sure it is for you and everyone listening to. But it just, you know, I think we need to have a different culture around this. You know, it's like, we talk about a lot of things in nursing, you know, bullying being one of them. We talk about how it's not allowed, and it's, you know, we have policies around what we would do, but there's no responsibility, there's no accountability, right? When I was in that moment, I mean, I was sobbing in the in the break room thinking I potentially just like give that gave this kid brain damage. And to have the manager come in and be like, how long do you think you're going to be? Like, I was devastated and like that, that is harmful to people. And somebody, those people need to be held accountable for that kind of behavior, right? And those kinds of actions, but I also have the perspective to have like, hurt people hurt people. So you know, there's, but I didn't have that at the time. At the time. I was just a mess. I was a puddle. And and then I was furious afterwards, right? Like, how dare they treat me like that. And it was just, you know, another thing to put on the pile of what I was experiencing, they're working in that critical care environment. But yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Unknown: 34:42

So I think all nurses need mentors, right. They need someone that they can call and talk to you about it because I know I have a mentor. And she she is also a good friend and I called her and I was bawling my eyes out and telling her what happened. And she's like, Oh, Jen, that's nothing. When I first started nursing, I gave my patient a sleeping pill. Three times in one day, and I couldn't figure out why I was so sleeping. Right? I mean, it's not funny, but it's not funny. But you know what it lifted the weight off my shoulders instantaneously, right like, and, and I felt immediately better because I wasn't the only one. And that's why I think we need to share these stories. I've given a patient an ordered dose of hydrolysing, that the physician orders and his pressure drops, like he was pre arrest, right? It is going to happen that you're going to give them medication to someone that they are not going to react well with. Right, I gave a lady morphine in the emergency department, and she puked. And she puked. And she threw up and she had to spend the night she was him because I gave her the morphine, right, I felt terrible. Yeah, like caused her to have more agony than what she came in with. Right, like, so. It's, it's, it's, it's hard like, and I think we all need to be a little bit more supportive of each other in those situations than it needs to be a little bit more open and less shaming, right?

Sandra Payne: 36:00

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I mean, it just kind of illustrates the expectations that are put on nurses, right, like there weren't, we're not. And this is not to say anything negative about bagging groceries, but we're not bagging groceries, these are human lives that we are responsible for. And the expectations, even when we are fully staffed, fully supported, the expectations are still really the bar is high. These are human lives we are dealing with. And right now, it's like you're operating with, you know, half a load kind of thing. Like you don't you don't have the tools and the support and the time and the resources and everything that you need to do the care to this extreme expectation that is out there like to be healing human beings. And you know, there's so much I just My heart is just when I think about what nurses are going through right now, and how scary it has got to be. But then also the impact of that constant fear of walking and being in a shift for 12, sometimes 18 more hours, where you're in that constant stress mode, that constant fight and flight and the impact that does on your entire system is just, it's devastating. It is devastating. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about mentoring, because I think that that is a significant project that really should evolve. I know, there are programs, you know, throughout Canada, for sure. mentoring programs, or peer support programs. And, you know, knowing that you have a place to turn I the program that I offer as well as like it's it's similar. It's a peer support, right. And so there's a lot of learning a lot of resources and tools that we learn throughout the program. But a big aspect of it is the group component where the nurses are together, they are sharing their experiences, they are witnessing each other. There's this sense of like camaraderie, right? And also, it ends that isolated feeling of like, I'm the only one that's gone through this. I'm the only one that's suffering right now. So yeah, tell me tell me, what are your thoughts about mentoring? And, you know, how could we make this sort of a more common practice, if you have some thoughts on that?

Unknown: 38:19

I think like, for me, the mentoring part isn't having a mentor to cheat necessarily teach you how to do your job. I mean, I think that's a really important part. But I think every nurse, especially a new nurse needs a mentor that's separate from where they're at. It's not not not affiliated with that particular work environment, and to be there more for emotional and psychological support, and to share their experiences. Like yesterday, I was bullied back in this unit. And this is what I did. And this is how I handled it, or this is the career move I made, I left this job and I went into public health and then I, you know, migrated up, or I went wherever and it made me happy or I did this volunteer position overseas for a few weeks. Just someone more there for like emotional support and guidance, right. And I feel really bad for nurses who are just kind of resigned to, you know, work in the emergency on a life or here right after they get out of school. I just I think that's just sad. Because there's more to it. Right? Like it's like Jane van burns, right. You had on? Yeah, it's like she didn't want to work with a bunch of burned out nurses at the bedside. Right? Good for her. Like she found her way like, so, you know, maybe some people need some nudging. I know, I've met some people that we're in because I didn't want to leave positions that they were in, but their term had ended up and I've noticed them to go work in other areas, and it's worked out really well. So it's, I think you just need someone there to kind of expand your take the blinders off and kind of look at the opportunities that can be out there for you. Yeah, right. Yeah. The nurse practitioner program, I think it's great. I think it's going to be it's much needed. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of the same issues that we face, you know, at the bedside, but at least They're now taking nursing forward a little bit more in certain areas of the Canada anyway.

Sandra Payne: 40:06

Yeah. I was gonna say there you can we can edit this. I just had a thought it was. What were you just saying?

Unknown: 40:17

We're Sandra. Mentoring and nurse practitioners and we're talking about oh, leaving? Yeah, leaving, leaving nursing?

Sandra Payne: 40:29

Yeah, yeah. I think there is a lot of nurses right now who are kind of at that point where they are considering? Is this worth it? Is it worth it to stick this out? And, you know, what's the cost? If I do? So I think there is there is definitely a conversation to be had there. It's definitely one I want to have. Because I, I left, I mean, I left I because I couldn't, I couldn't do it, everything inside of me was saying that this is not the right choice, this is not the place for you, this is not good for you. But making that choice and leaving was extremely difficult and scary. And, you know, there was a, there still is a grief process. And you know, we were talking I don't think it was actually I was talking to another nurse and who left nursing also and how we, you know, we're hanging on to our license, and we're hanging on to these pieces, even though we oh, we're not going back. Because we know we it's not for us, and we've moved in a different direction. But you know, there is a whole process to that. And I it's not for me or for anyone to tell anybody what the best choices for them. Right. But I think you need to, you need to really take that time to to navigate what what is the best choice for me. And, and sometimes it means leaving, sometimes, sometimes it does. And but I also, you know, want to mention, just, you know, what you just said is that there's so many opportunities, as honors, right? Like, it doesn't doesn't mean we have to leave nursing altogether. Like there are so many roles that you can take as a nurse, but I do see so much of like this perspective of like, Oh, I've only ever worked in long term care, how am I ever going to do? Well, you started in long term care, and you survived. Like, let's,

Unknown: 42:19

I see that a lot, too. I see that so much. It's like, I have to work long term care, and I can't make a change, or they've worked emergency for 18 years, and you're trying to make a change, right. And it's like, it's stressful, and it's hard. And it's the fears about learning something new and being a failure and having shame and, and it's like, it's amazing how you carry all that stuff with you.

Sandra Payne: 42:43

And it's and it's also really amazing to work through that stuff. So I kind of I kind of, you know, I if you if you read what I wrote this morning, it was like talking about the edge. And I feel like the edge is an opportunity, right? Like if we make a choice to do something different and face all of that fear, all that shame, you know, with support because nobody wants to face that kind of stuff, and nobody should face it alone. But we open up and we expand to like so much potential and possibility in our life. There are so many opportunities, but there is this sense of like, How can I how can I leave this I know when I when I first left the NICU to I wasn't supported either, you know, like the staff on that unit were like, Oh, you're gonna be so bored where you go? Or like, that's not even real nursing. Right? Like, those kinds of comments. So, so not supportive, and like definitely not inspiring for me to go and so I'm still baffled to this day, how I was able to find the strength to leave, you know, in the in the shame spiral that I was sucked into in that in that time, but, but yet I did but I think probably a lot of nurses go through something very similar to it's like, first of all, how could I you know, how can I face all those things I'm not good enough. I'm, you know, I can't learn new skills. I'm, I'm too old. I'm this kind of nurse, like we label ourselves. Like we don't have this expanded potential. But then there's also this like, you know, this this shame and guilt to have leaving the people who you've been working with, I mean, there's so many factors really that that come into play. It's very layered. very layered. I'm curious if you could tell us, you know, in like a sentence or you know, not a sentence but like I was gonna reframe that there. We can edit that out. So I'm curious if you could tell us just, you know, in a nutshell kind of like what what have been the most impactful tools or resources or practices or supports that you have found that have helped you to create more balance in your career and to create a much more healthier? Well, you know, well being mentally emotionally physically secure. Actually, you know, I know that's a big loaded question. But if you could just, you know, offer what have been the most beneficial. Healing, I would say for you,

Unknown: 45:12

well, anybody out there that's listening has horses, as I do a lot of thinking and problem solving when I'm cleaning stalls. And I also practice Heart Math, I meditate very regularly, I try to eat well, although Doritos are my emergency kind of go to snack food, I try and eat well, I have a mentor as well for nursing. And I have a mentor for my equine practice. And I also have a nurse mentor that I had mentioned before. So I have different people that I reach out to, and I haven't my, of course, my mental health professional if I didn't say that already. So I kind of I know when I need to call her and book a book in and just for, just to see how things are going. And, and I work with a really great crew, I finally have a job where we're all on the same page, we can all give really good care, I have all the resources, I need to do my job. And it's it's really nice. And I work in recovery room now. And that's where old nurses go to die. So I've been told. But that's okay. I'm okay with that. That's fine. I I'm good. And I think that, you know, you have to realize how your job impacts your family as well. I think that's really important. Like, are you bringing all that stuff home? With you? Do you have enough energy to spend some time with your husband? Can you listen to what he needs his concerns? Because, in my experience, they can't always hear our stories, and we need to have someone to hear our stories, right? Yeah. Yeah, I thought mentorships the biggest part for sure.

Sandra Payne: 46:50

Yeah, I'm feeling like it like it really is we need to have, we need to have somebody to turn to or a group of somebodies to turn to and, you know, I reflect on this all the time and thinking of the workshops I've done. And the main thing, as far as feedback I get is that it's so it's so good to be in connection with someone who's a nurse, and who gets it right, who's been there who understands the ins and outs and what it really is, like the pressure and the expectations and the shame and all of it. The trauma that we experience. And so there is, you know, there's a real sense of relief, I think for for other nurses when they can access a practitioner who is skilled and, and has resources to help them such as yourself and and myself and there's, you know, there's many others who are doing this work who are you know, caring for the care providers, and nursing the nurses, if you will, but it's, there is there is definitely a safety in it, because nobody wants to try to explain what it's like to be a nurse, as I'm not sure you accurately can like I I don't, you know, you're like drowning and on fire at the same time. Like that might be a good explanation. But but you don't you know, unless you have that lived experience, it's really hard for for people to understand. So I think having a, you know, a mentor or a care provider that is that is familiar with nursing and gets it I think is really super helpful for people as they as they navigate whatever challenges they're going through.

Unknown: 48:29

Yeah, I was actually I did an online search looking for a psychologist that specialized in nurses and I couldn't find one. So I mean, that'd be a huge market right there. Right? Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting like through my workshops, we all share the same thing. We all have anxiety who hasn't set that bolt right bolt upright in bed at two o'clock in the morning and go I didn't chart that. Like yeah, who hasn't done that right? Yeah, right. Like

Sandra Payne: 48:54

I was just I was just asked yesterday Do you ever have dreams about it? And I was like, not not good dreams like I have I still have those not very often but but I have you know, where I've like, woken up like oh my god, I forgot to do oh my god, I love my shift. I didn't even Oh my God, I didn't even touch this baby. The whole shift. Like I didn't. The nurse is gonna come on. I haven't changed the like just panic, like panic over really. They weren't significant things. But that's the that's the level of stress and trauma that's happening on an ongoing basis. Yeah. So so we need to we need to as a culture, but also as individuals recognize that this is the reality and that is not sustainable, that we each of us, it's almost it needs to become our personal responsibility that we look for care that we look for support, that we look for tools and ways that we can navigate this because I really don't think it's sustainable. I would wager to say there's probably a handful that that are going to you know, ride the wave and will be will will be you know, fine to some degree but For those for the vast majority, there's going to be a significant cost to them and their well being. And so I really think that there is a huge need for the work that that you and I are doing for nurses. And I just, I just really, really hope that nurses will hear this and will hear our message and will hear that we are, you know that we are here and we care and we want to help. And we want to, you know, walk beside them as they they figure this out. And so tell us, how can nurses find you and and the work that you do,

Unknown: 50:33

sir, Oh, there's one more thing I just wanted to add, if you need to have some sort of ritual to end your day, to leave your work at work, right, whether you drive around the block three times, or you sit in the car for five minutes, and take a mindfulness break, you have to have something that breaks up somewhere of all the stuff that happened to you during the day or the time you enter your house, you need to have some way to unload all of that stuff. Because you want to bring that energy into your house and into your family. And a lot of nurses I work with younger nurses that have young kids. So you don't want to bring that to your kids, right. So meditate for five minutes, do some stretching, I used to throw, throw, I'd save up all my glass glass stuff, and I'd have a corner of the garage and I'd smashed glass, depending on how bad the day was, like you just have to find a way or find a ritual or something that's going to work for you. You know, so it was so essential oils, work on some pressure points, but I think it's really important that you find a way to, to unload the challenges of the day.

Sandra Payne: 51:35

I so agree, I'm so glad that you mentioned that too. I, I was introduced to it as kind of like bookends to your day. Right? So you know, starting it off with an intention or a practice that just kind of sets you up with this. Like it's gonna be a good day, right? Like, you know, I my routine. When I come into my office, like turn on my lab turn on my diffuser, like smell some oils, I do some affirmations. I, you know, I just I'm setting myself up for the day. And the day. I shake it off. I literally will shake for a few minutes. Yeah, I you know, I smudge my room, I you know, I do some some more affirmation, some deep breathing, some stretching, because it's like, I It's so even in my own work, when I pop out of my office, and I'm like, boom, right into my kids, and I'm into my family, I'm into the home, I don't adjust well. So you know, and I don't have the same level of stress and pain that people are going through as nurses, you know, working right now. So I think that is so important. And I'm so happy that you mentioned that. Yeah, so tell us how they can find you.

Unknown: 52:38

You can find me on Facebook, dragonfly meadows, equine facilitated learning, and my website is dragonfly meadows.ca. And if anybody needs to talk about med errors, give me a call. Because I will help you I we can talk through it. i It's a big deal. Like it's, it's I think it's the biggest cause of shame and stigma, you know, among nurses, right? Like, you know, because when you ever come to your new unit, they'll say, Oh, that's so and so she made a merit admit error a couple of years ago, didn't I mean, that's kind of how it, you know, and that speaks to the whole labeling thing, which we don't need to get into that.

Sandra Payne: 53:20

Yeah. Well, you know, I'm just, there's something to that, though, right? Like just being sort of labeled as this as that kind of nurse. But, you know, it would speak the same as like nurses that have taken a leave, right, like, oh, there's so and so she just got back from a mental health leave like that, that I mean, it turns my stomach honestly, that we would have that kind of like, I don't know if this compassionate is a word, but I think it is. But it's that kind of approach to our colleagues and our friends, like, you know, we should be supporting people. And we should be celebrating people who take action to make their lives better, because it impacts everybody, right? The nurse who's on the floor, who's completely burnt out who's completely distraught, distressed, depressed, that she's not, she's not the nurse that's providing the, you know, the greatest level of care. She's not the most supportive nurse to the rest of the staff. They're the one who does the work, who is willing to take a leave if they need to, or to at least access resources and talk about the struggles. I mean, she becomes a better woman and so many, and I say woman, but you know, I know there's man, but she becomes better in every aspect of her life, right? She's able to do everything to such a better degree, and she feels better. So why wouldn't we celebrate that and really encourage it's kind of it's so backward and it just is really like a you know, a symptom of how sick our system is. But yeah, I'm

Unknown: 54:45

sorry. One more thing. They're not. I find that there isn't as much stigma here, at least in the hospital I worked with about taking stress leaves. It's like I just find it's totally different than when I worked in Alberta and Alberta. I don't think I knew in nursing go to stress sleeve? I don't think they I don't know when nurses stress li for mental health? I don't think they got them to be honest with you. But here in Nova Scotia, it's I would say it's it's been my experience with nurses that have gone off on stress leave, they've been supported. And it's been kind of accepted, right? I mean, it's all career longevity.

Sandra Payne: 55:17

Yeah, that is so good to hear. I wonder, you know, if like, just the bigger bigger provinces, the bigger cities are still struggling with this there. There definitely are nurses that are particularly this past year and a half, I would say like, where everything has just come to a head, a lot of nurses are off on on a leave, which I just I think is really courageous, though, to step up and say, I My wish is that we would step up and ask for help before it gets to that point, right. Yeah. As a proactive kind of preventative approach, knowing that this job takes a lot, and that we all need to have that ongoing support. We don't just need to wait until we are drowning in on fire. Before we before we get that help. We could we could get it right now. Yeah, you can get it right. So yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add? No. I always find no matter who it is. We can talk forever because there's just there's so many things to talk about. There really is. And you know, there's always an opportunity to have you back and we can continue this conversation. I so appreciate you and your time and your expertise and everything that you are doing for for nurses and for this profession is definitely needed. And I encourage anyone who's listening to reach out to Jennifer and access her her workshops and her programming. So again, thank you so much for being here. And yeah stop the recording.